Need your opinion on puppy food question - DogForum.net

luvmypup · 02-06-2010, 06:11 PM

When I brought my puppy in I weaned him with Old Roy Soft & Moist (not my choice but I'll I had and snowed in). He's now on Natural Balance Ultra Small Bites and I'm feeding him about 1/4 cup or a little more 3 or 4 times a day. He's been on it now for a couple weeks and his stools aren't solid like I thought they should be. Should I be feeding him less? He's a 13 week old beagle/rat terrier mix and only weighs 8 lbs. I think he looks a bit thin for a puppy but the vet said he looked fine. His spine isn't showing or anything but he's very trim. I've been also using his kibble and some training treats (pea size) for training and I fill his Kong with peanut butter, kibble, and whatever other doggy treats I can cram in there about every other day or so.

I was thinking of maybe switching him to something higher quality like Wellness or Canidae (although that one is said to not agree with some dogs since the new formula). Cost is an issue and the nearest pet store is about 45 minutes away but I want to do right by my little guy. I don't know if changing his food again would be wise or not this soon but I hate that his stools are so loose since he's still having accidents in my carpeted home and he's a poop eater (ugh). Oh, and I wonder if maybe the change in his stools may have something to do with the anti-poop-eating pills I got at Wally world for that issue. I've only been giving that to him for the last two days. When you use a new treat like cheese or hot dogs, do you need to slowly introduce or will that even effect his stools much?

Thanks for any advice you may have and I did look through the scaling food discussion thread before posting this so I know where these dog foods range on the scale.

n0mad · 02-06-2010, 10:47 PM

The treats and the peanut butter could be what's doing it. What I would try if it were my puppy would be to cut out the treats for a while and just do training when he's hungry using his kibble for the motivator. That way you can be sure if it's his food or not. Also, I've heard from more than a few people that adding pineapple juice to the food works better than any of the anti-poop-eating pills. It's supposed to have some enzyme or something in it that makes it taste disgusting even to dogs.

Edited to say: I include the peanut butter in the Kong as a treat. I wouldn't give him anything digestable except his food until you are sure it either is or isn't.

**skunkstripe** · 02-07-2010, 10:01 AM

Personally I would not trust anything from WallyWorld. There is a well-known brand of pet supplies that has their products in supermarkets, K-mart, W-Mart, including treats, flea collars, shampoo etc and I avoid it like the plague.

Puppies often have runny stools for mysterious reasons and one is overfeeding. Whatever it says on the bag, it's probably recommending too much. I agree with n0mad about the peanut butter, it's got a lot of grease in it.

There's nothing wrong with Natural Balance but if you want to switch it's always a good idea to do it gradually byt mixing the kibble instead of all at once. Some doggies have sensitive tummies and react to a sudden switch with the runs.

Vambo · 02-07-2010, 10:22 AM

Cut out the extras and just feed the kibble for now. I wouldn't change food until the stool firms up which it should it there are no physical problems.

A change in food can cause loose stool. The ingredients are listed on the bag. Read them and you will soon learn what food that is sold close to home, that is within your comfort range price wise, that is also something that provides good nutrition and he likes to eat. Do that and you will be doing right by your little buddy.

Try to observe the time he defecates in the house as well. Then you can attempt to find a pattern and arrange for him to be outside 5 minutes before the time comes until he goes. Then take the time to make sure he is finished before you let him back in the house. He will catch on soon enough with praise.

**vagreys** · 02-07-2010, 02:39 PM

I wouldn't change his food, right now. Natural Balance is good food. Since the nutritional information on the website doesn't tell us what the nutritional density of the food is, I used the proximate analysis numbers and determined that it is delivering approximately 370 kcals/100g. At his age and weight, he needs about 520 kcals/day from all sources, or about 140g of kibble to feed his growth, and he should probably be getting it over 4 meals. I don't know what a cup of that food weighs. You'll need to measure.

As already mentioned, switching foods can cause loose stools. It can take two or more weeks just for the gut to settle down after a significant change in food, and switching from Ol' Roy to Natural Balance is a gigantic upgrade in quality. That alone could be causing the loose stools. If you are feeding a kong filled with peanut butter and kibble and other unspecified ingredients, in addition to his regular kibble, that is a huge amount of excess food at his size. Peanut butter is very rich and dense, nutritionally. That would definitely cause loose stools.

If I were you I would stick with the Natural Balance for about 4-6 more weeks before deciding whether or not to switch, again. I would weigh the kibble, and find out how many grams of kibble are in a cup or 1/4 cup, so I know how many calories I'm feeding. Your pup is entering the period of maximum growth and needs an optimal blend of nutrition for proper development. As others have suggested, I would cut out the kong, for now, and just feed a consistent diet of high-quality kibble. I would also stop the anti-poop eating pills immediately.

Copraphagia, poop-eating, it is a disgusting habit, but one in which many young dogs engage. They often grow out of it, but some dogs remain poop eaters their entire lives. We don't really know why they do it, but there are many theories, none of which apply for all cases. People have tried many methods to discourage copraphagia. A method I learned, here, that has worked very well for me with my foster hounds, is to sprinkle about 1/8 teaspoon of kelp on their food. It apparently makes the poop taste really bad to them, and kelp has the added benefit of acting as a dietary supplement, adding vitamins and trace minerals to the diet. I have used small kelp flakes or powder with equally good results. You can find it in the organic/health food or vitamins/supplements sections of the grocery, in health food stores, or from vitamin shops. While this will stop him from eating his own poop, it won't stop him from eating the poop of other animals when you take him out on walks or to a dog park.

For your pup, at ages 3-5 months, I'd be feeding him as follows:

at 8 lbs - about 520 kcal/day, 140g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals
at 9 lbs - about 570 kcal/day, 154g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals
at 10 lbs - about 615 kcal/day, 165g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals
at 11 lbs - about 660 kcal/day, 180g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals

At age 5-6 months, your small breed pup will start needing less food for growth, and will not need to be fed as frequently. I'd go to 3 meals per day, evenly spaced, and the amount fed would depend on the pup's weight.

At about 9 or 10 months, I'd go to 2 meals per day, evently spaced.

luvmypup · 02-07-2010, 04:48 PM

Thank you all so very much for helping out in this. I wasn't sure if it was something I was doing or not doing and the vet didn't seem real worried about his weight (he's an old codger but good). I did switch out his food gradually when going to Natural Balance and rushed it a bit too much at first and had to back up a step but then it went well from there, then just became loose again in the last few days. I do think it may be the treats & peanut butter as you said but I'll do as directed and cut those out for a while. Just a note, I wasn't "filling" the kong (puppy size for teething) full with it but just using some to make the goodies stay in longer. Do you think it would still be okay to use the training treats for when I'm working with him? He still needs a lot of work and I'm getting my clicker in the mail this week. The treats are mainly Bil-Jac "Little Jacs" small dog training treats in which I cut up even smaller and the kibble in which I can use a portion of the days' meals for training.

Vagreys, thank you for the info on what to feed as he grows. That I am printing out to keep on hand. If you think that Natural Balance is a high quality food and that it wouldn't be necessary to switch to Wellness then I may just stick with it depending on the price difference at Petco. The only place I see around this area for good dog food would be at Orscheln's but I still didn't think Science Diet ranked that high on your scale and I can't remember what other brands they had. I guess I've got some time to think about that anyways.

Thanks again for helping me out.

Monkey · 02-07-2010, 04:54 PM

I agree with the rest and I can tell you this Missy my pitmix, it took her 6 months to firm up and one change to a better food. She easily gets looser stool if stressed too. so it can be an emotional disposition as well and it don't take much to stress her at times. So don't worry as long as your dog seems healthy (and leaner is better for pups than fat for bones and joints as he's growing), happy, fur is good, skin is good, then if the stool is a little loose I wouldn't worry too much. Just like us it can change cause of different reasons. Look at the whole picture..

But I know where you cmoing from, dog lovers will always worry if the poop don't look right, have the right smell, color and consistensy *lol*

Pauline46 · 02-07-2010, 05:09 PM

Another good food that I have been using for my dogs is Fromm. I would take all this good advice first though and see how it goes.

n0mad · 02-07-2010, 05:24 PM

I would cut out the training treats as well right now or you won't know for sure that the dog food is or isn't the cause. Some dogs, especially puppies, can get upset tummies from things others could chow down on in excess and not feel a thing.

When your clicker comes just wait until it's feeding time and use his kibble as the bait same as you would with the treats. Most hungry puppies don't care what it tastes like as long as it's food. This way too you will also know that he's getting all his calories from a healthy diet and not just put on fat that won't do him any good.

luvmypup · 02-07-2010, 06:15 PM

Okay, so I measured out 140g and it looks like I'm probably not offering him as much as I could or at least need to spread it out between 4 meals instead. I was doing 1/4c three times a day and a little for training. It looks like I could do 1/4c four times a day and another 1/4c for training and he'd be getting in the suggested amount of calories. If he's not interested in eating till at least 10 or 11 in the morning and goes to bed around 10:30 to 11:30 in the evening, what schedule would you recommend for meals? I don't want him eating too soon before bed but don't want to put the meals too close together either. Thanks.

02-06-2010, 06:11 PM	#1
luvmypup Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 32 Rep: 11 Unique Rep: 1	Need your opinion on puppy food question When I brought my puppy in I weaned him with Old Roy Soft & Moist (not my choice but I'll I had and snowed in). He's now on Natural Balance Ultra Small Bites and I'm feeding him about 1/4 cup or a little more 3 or 4 times a day. He's been on it now for a couple weeks and his stools aren't solid like I thought they should be. Should I be feeding him less? He's a 13 week old beagle/rat terrier mix and only weighs 8 lbs. I think he looks a bit thin for a puppy but the vet said he looked fine. His spine isn't showing or anything but he's very trim. I've been also using his kibble and some training treats (pea size) for training and I fill his Kong with peanut butter, kibble, and whatever other doggy treats I can cram in there about every other day or so. I was thinking of maybe switching him to something higher quality like Wellness or Canidae (although that one is said to not agree with some dogs since the new formula). Cost is an issue and the nearest pet store is about 45 minutes away but I want to do right by my little guy. I don't know if changing his food again would be wise or not this soon but I hate that his stools are so loose since he's still having accidents in my carpeted home and he's a poop eater (ugh). Oh, and I wonder if maybe the change in his stools may have something to do with the anti-poop-eating pills I got at Wally world for that issue. I've only been giving that to him for the last two days. When you use a new treat like cheese or hot dogs, do you need to slowly introduce or will that even effect his stools much? Thanks for any advice you may have and I did look through the scaling food discussion thread before posting this so I know where these dog foods range on the scale.

02-07-2010, 10:01 AM	#3
skunkstripe All American Dog Lover Join Date: May 2006 Location: New England USA Posts: 20,571 Blog Entries: 10 Rep: 355 Unique Rep: 141	Personally I would not trust anything from WallyWorld. There is a well-known brand of pet supplies that has their products in supermarkets, K-mart, W-Mart, including treats, flea collars, shampoo etc and I avoid it like the plague. Puppies often have runny stools for mysterious reasons and one is overfeeding. Whatever it says on the bag, it's probably recommending too much. I agree with n0mad about the peanut butter, it's got a lot of grease in it. There's nothing wrong with Natural Balance but if you want to switch it's always a good idea to do it gradually byt mixing the kibble instead of all at once. Some doggies have sensitive tummies and react to a sudden switch with the runs. __________________ Help us Help you! Read and understand the Terms of Service, report offensive posts and Forum Reputation. Helpful Tips - in our FAQ Section and Newbie Guide. Connect with DogForum.org members - chat with us! Put yourself on the map. Things to do - Start a blog. Be sure to visit the DogForum.org photo gallery Use your computer to benefit mankind - join the DogForum.org Folding Team. Thanks Fede for the sigpic! I've been fleeced by Draco!

02-07-2010, 02:39 PM	#5
vagreys Adopt a Retired Racer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Richmond VA USA Posts: 2,386 Rep: 169 Unique Rep: 57	I wouldn't change his food, right now. Natural Balance is good food. Since the nutritional information on the website doesn't tell us what the nutritional density of the food is, I used the proximate analysis numbers and determined that it is delivering approximately 370 kcals/100g. At his age and weight, he needs about 520 kcals/day from all sources, or about 140g of kibble to feed his growth, and he should probably be getting it over 4 meals. I don't know what a cup of that food weighs. You'll need to measure. As already mentioned, switching foods can cause loose stools. It can take two or more weeks just for the gut to settle down after a significant change in food, and switching from Ol' Roy to Natural Balance is a gigantic upgrade in quality. That alone could be causing the loose stools. If you are feeding a kong filled with peanut butter and kibble and other unspecified ingredients, in addition to his regular kibble, that is a huge amount of excess food at his size. Peanut butter is very rich and dense, nutritionally. That would definitely cause loose stools. If I were you I would stick with the Natural Balance for about 4-6 more weeks before deciding whether or not to switch, again. I would weigh the kibble, and find out how many grams of kibble are in a cup or 1/4 cup, so I know how many calories I'm feeding. Your pup is entering the period of maximum growth and needs an optimal blend of nutrition for proper development. As others have suggested, I would cut out the kong, for now, and just feed a consistent diet of high-quality kibble. I would also stop the anti-poop eating pills immediately. Copraphagia, poop-eating, it is a disgusting habit, but one in which many young dogs engage. They often grow out of it, but some dogs remain poop eaters their entire lives. We don't really know why they do it, but there are many theories, none of which apply for all cases. People have tried many methods to discourage copraphagia. A method I learned, here, that has worked very well for me with my foster hounds, is to sprinkle about 1/8 teaspoon of kelp on their food. It apparently makes the poop taste really bad to them, and kelp has the added benefit of acting as a dietary supplement, adding vitamins and trace minerals to the diet. I have used small kelp flakes or powder with equally good results. You can find it in the organic/health food or vitamins/supplements sections of the grocery, in health food stores, or from vitamin shops. While this will stop him from eating his own poop, it won't stop him from eating the poop of other animals when you take him out on walks or to a dog park. For your pup, at ages 3-5 months, I'd be feeding him as follows: at 8 lbs - about 520 kcal/day, 140g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals at 9 lbs - about 570 kcal/day, 154g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals at 10 lbs - about 615 kcal/day, 165g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals at 11 lbs - about 660 kcal/day, 180g of Natural Balance spread over 4 meals At age 5-6 months, your small breed pup will start needing less food for growth, and will not need to be fed as frequently. I'd go to 3 meals per day, evenly spaced, and the amount fed would depend on the pup's weight. At about 9 or 10 months, I'd go to 2 meals per day, evently spaced. __________________ Help us Help you! Read and understand the Terms of Service, report offensive posts and Forum Reputation. Helpful Tips - in our FAQ Section and Newbie Guide. Connect with DogForum.org members - chat with us! Put yourself on the map. Things to do - Start a blog. Be sure to visit the DogForum.org photo gallery Use your computer to benefit mankind - join the DogForum.org Folding Team.

02-07-2010, 04:54 PM	#7
Monkey Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Massapequa Posts: 8,207 Blog Entries: 23 Rep: 118 Unique Rep: 56	I agree with the rest and I can tell you this Missy my pitmix, it took her 6 months to firm up and one change to a better food. She easily gets looser stool if stressed too. so it can be an emotional disposition as well and it don't take much to stress her at times. So don't worry as long as your dog seems healthy (and leaner is better for pups than fat for bones and joints as he's growing), happy, fur is good, skin is good, then if the stool is a little loose I wouldn't worry too much. Just like us it can change cause of different reasons. Look at the whole picture.. But I know where you cmoing from, dog lovers will always worry if the poop don't look right, have the right smell, color and consistensy lol __________________ I love dogs cause they do not lie. "I'm chillin' with the forum! "I've been fleeced by Draco!" "I've been fleeced by JGLI"

02-07-2010, 05:09 PM	#8
Pauline46 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 971 Rep: 21 Unique Rep: 9	Another good food that I have been using for my dogs is Fromm. I would take all this good advice first though and see how it goes. __________________ Your Forum Pal Pauline (Living with the challenges of Lupus everyday) Meet Gracie, my Sable Headed White Collie Girl, and my blue and white Merle Collie boy Toby! I've been kissed........

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Need your opinion on puppy food question

02-06-2010, 10:47 PM	#2
n0mad Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 129 Rep: 13 Unique Rep: 3	The treats and the peanut butter could be what's doing it. What I would try if it were my puppy would be to cut out the treats for a while and just do training when he's hungry using his kibble for the motivator. That way you can be sure if it's his food or not. Also, I've heard from more than a few people that adding pineapple juice to the food works better than any of the anti-poop-eating pills. It's supposed to have some enzyme or something in it that makes it taste disgusting even to dogs. Edited to say: I include the peanut butter in the Kong as a treat. I wouldn't give him anything digestable except his food until you are sure it either is or isn't.

02-07-2010, 10:22 AM	#4
Vambo Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 304 Rep: 16 Unique Rep: 5	Cut out the extras and just feed the kibble for now. I wouldn't change food until the stool firms up which it should it there are no physical problems. A change in food can cause loose stool. The ingredients are listed on the bag. Read them and you will soon learn what food that is sold close to home, that is within your comfort range price wise, that is also something that provides good nutrition and he likes to eat. Do that and you will be doing right by your little buddy. Try to observe the time he defecates in the house as well. Then you can attempt to find a pattern and arrange for him to be outside 5 minutes before the time comes until he goes. Then take the time to make sure he is finished before you let him back in the house. He will catch on soon enough with praise.

02-07-2010, 04:48 PM	#6
luvmypup Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 32 Rep: 11 Unique Rep: 1	Thank you all so very much for helping out in this. I wasn't sure if it was something I was doing or not doing and the vet didn't seem real worried about his weight (he's an old codger but good). I did switch out his food gradually when going to Natural Balance and rushed it a bit too much at first and had to back up a step but then it went well from there, then just became loose again in the last few days. I do think it may be the treats & peanut butter as you said but I'll do as directed and cut those out for a while. Just a note, I wasn't "filling" the kong (puppy size for teething) full with it but just using some to make the goodies stay in longer. Do you think it would still be okay to use the training treats for when I'm working with him? He still needs a lot of work and I'm getting my clicker in the mail this week. The treats are mainly Bil-Jac "Little Jacs" small dog training treats in which I cut up even smaller and the kibble in which I can use a portion of the days' meals for training. Vagreys, thank you for the info on what to feed as he grows. That I am printing out to keep on hand. If you think that Natural Balance is a high quality food and that it wouldn't be necessary to switch to Wellness then I may just stick with it depending on the price difference at Petco. The only place I see around this area for good dog food would be at Orscheln's but I still didn't think Science Diet ranked that high on your scale and I can't remember what other brands they had. I guess I've got some time to think about that anyways. Thanks again for helping me out.

02-07-2010, 05:24 PM	#9
n0mad Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 129 Rep: 13 Unique Rep: 3	I would cut out the training treats as well right now or you won't know for sure that the dog food is or isn't the cause. Some dogs, especially puppies, can get upset tummies from things others could chow down on in excess and not feel a thing. When your clicker comes just wait until it's feeding time and use his kibble as the bait same as you would with the treats. Most hungry puppies don't care what it tastes like as long as it's food. This way too you will also know that he's getting all his calories from a healthy diet and not just put on fat that won't do him any good.

02-07-2010, 06:15 PM	#10
luvmypup Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 32 Rep: 11 Unique Rep: 1	Okay, so I measured out 140g and it looks like I'm probably not offering him as much as I could or at least need to spread it out between 4 meals instead. I was doing 1/4c three times a day and a little for training. It looks like I could do 1/4c four times a day and another 1/4c for training and he'd be getting in the suggested amount of calories. If he's not interested in eating till at least 10 or 11 in the morning and goes to bed around 10:30 to 11:30 in the evening, what schedule would you recommend for meals? I don't want him eating too soon before bed but don't want to put the meals too close together either. Thanks. Last edited by luvmypup; 02-07-2010 at 06:17 PM..

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